Curse

Shuuda · Apr 24, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

"We" is all those that strongly believed that GW would go 'pay once' forever, as they always said.

Do you often fall for these kind of rosy promises, and believe they will last forever? Advertising, advertising... it bends the truth no matter what way you look at it.

AmbientMelody · Apr 24, 2009, 07:41 PM // 19:41

The point of this post is critism, possibly costructive one of the seemingly switching GW business model in favour of f2p mmo system, where there is more and more additional content which is purchasable. I'd like to point out everyone (=each gw player) has essentially PAID for the game, and each transaction is bound to a particular campaign so it unlocks additional content. Difference between this and microtransactions is that You pay for something that should be free once you have paid for your campaign if it's improvement to that campaign or core game content. Nothing more wrong - not only you have paid for campaign, but now they want your money to change such pesky thing as your appearance! Come on, it has gone too far, don't you see that?

I don't mind people buying unlock sets. Personally I unlock everything on my own as it's more fun and certainly brings some explore-achieve factor to my roleplay.

I don't mind people paying for additional character slots or storage slots (although, price might be 'a bit over the top').

I don't mind the fact that Bonus Mission Pack is paid content, because it offers no content that gives advantage to someone over me, and I believe development of this set of missions took way more resources than creating Sorrows Furnance. I'm okay that I have to pay for it and that it's promotional content, even if I'd rather it was free or a reward to each player possessing every campaign along with EOTN.

But, 24th April update brought mixed feelings to the atmosphere. If You (yes, all, if not most of you) won't boycott this aggressive Anet politics towards us, End-Users of their game, we will see more 'free' updates ... for the chosen. Some time ago NCSoft denied introducing system of NC Coin to Guild Wars as it would harm the game itself and doesn't fit to it's business model. Now, you want to tell me, Anet, that the microtransactions in this update aren't essentially the same thing ? People, do you think it's normal to pay even a slightest cent for changing appearance of your character given the fact that it gives you an access to face/hair/skin modifications unavaible unless you pay for them?

I can understand paid option to change your name or appearance, or even sex ... but I'm not going to stay idly by if I'm told to PAY for something which should be essentially free - and this includes already mentioned bonus hair and face sets.

Anet, if you had balls (sorry for this vague expression), you would've given every current Guild Wars player one kit for every character created on account and allowed us to benefit from extra appearance options upon creation of new character without being forced to pay for it.

Your pricing on apperance and name change kits suggest you want to get money from vocal minority that shouted for appearance change for some time. It's okay with me. Just don't put me in the same boat as them simply because you RESTRICT the content which should be for free as I've already paid for every campaign and EOTN. I have invested over 3500 hours to this game and believe me, your 'new business model' is a disgrace to your loyal players that thought you will never go THAT far - it's simply against your principles which shaped the game since 2005. Now I see Guild Wars is no longer the game I've paid for and it's no longer run by the company I've trusted. I want my money or honour back. First one would be simpler, second one would require you too think deeply about what you have done and go few step backs, in your roots, Anet.

You want my money? That's fine! But I'm not going to pay for what you are offering! I'm not playing a pesky f2p game where I don't have to pay a cent to play, I play a prestigious b2p game! Try to tell guys over Blizzard to introduce microtransactions to Diablo franchise and they will laugh from you! You know why? Because they care about their customers and most of all - their reputation. Good reputation conflicts with changing status quo of the game, causing players to doubt if it's still the same game they have paid for over 3 years ago. Shame on you.

/Rant off

If any of you have civic courage to shout it aloud, do it! It's your game you have paid for, it's your right as customer to feel violated!

Rocky Raccoon · Apr 24, 2009, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Realistic? Ok. Let's look at a REAL site: Megaupload.

You can pay 9.99 for a month of premium service, but you can also PAY ONCE 199.99 for a 'for-life' service.

It's way much more than the monthly fee? Yes. But you pay it just once. Fire and forget.

What happens when 2 months later the goes under? I am sure that money is never coming back.

Inde · Apr 24, 2009, 07:44 PM // 19:44

I feel the same as some of the other posters. Is this an issue that needs to be thrown out of proportion because Anet has decided to go the way of a lot of other games and piecemeal out certain features by having to fork out $$$$? Probably not.

At the same time, I do feel it is a bit deceptive. I don't know about any of you, but if I'm a new player looking to purchase a game that claims quite boldly that you pay a single fee and you get access to the game without having to purchase anything else... only to login and indeed see an entire menu filled with optional things to purchase... well it all seems a bit misleading to me. Like trying to hook a consumer and then spring all these extra costs on them. It would make me suspicious as I wonder (since I've never played the game) what I'm going to have to pay further down the line.

Ec]-[oMaN · Apr 24, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

I really don't see what all the fuss is about.
Anet gives us a Makeover feature wanted by the community for a long time running,(many of the games I've played in the past never even offered the option!!!) added storage space, HOM update. Everything they have released up until this point has been adequate for a pay once game release. They've even gone out of their way so that players can obtain added space through ingame means, and we all moan. The current offerings released yesterday are all bonus, and yeah if you want it, pay for it. The Makeover thing falls under, appearance, it's not hindering gameplay. Storage up until this point I think has also been adequate. Seriously what's the point of hording useless items that you'll never sell or even use on a daily, weekly basis. This update is just the cherry on top, mind you it came into effect way to late regarding Guild Wars life line.

If Anet can follow the model they've been building up thus far and delivery us with GW2 pay once, release quality/adequate content and have added esthetics at a cost, so be it. You really can't blame them for going this route, as other parties are probably involved, not only that but I'm pretty sure they know there is a big market for features added as of late relating to added features at a price through the ingame store.

Saphrium · Apr 24, 2009, 08:00 PM // 20:00

There are many MMO developers/publishers that are more "greedy" than Anet, subscription models, microtran games asking players to pay for double experiece scrolls, pve-easy items(con set for example), server changes, vanity items(cosmetic wear, glasses, masks, mini pets, etc.) and content updates(sorrow furnace complexity) with cash. GW offered a very loose leash on these things and a f2p player can suffer no more than 10% disadvantage on game progress (PVP unlocks) and suffer no penalty with the full content of the game. But then again, if GW goes that way, community will die out really quickly.

The best feature of this release is the stylist, now player can customize their char with the choices of all 3 chapters, now that's a marketable concept, useful, unique and convenient(just like pvp unlocks).

The worst feature of this release is the storage panes, considering full chapters cost these days, most players really can't relate to the cost, if it would make more sense if it is 10 bucks for the whole 4 panes, I don't know if this will make more money, but I am sure that more players would be motivated to get them.

I think Anet needs to do a little more thinking on these concepts, it will definitely help with motivating the buying power and justifying the costs. If you remember the first time factions came out, players dicussed if they should merge their chapter serial codes and lose 2 character slot (6 on 1 account instead of 8 over 2 accounts), it is the same idea.

AmbientMelody · Apr 24, 2009, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

I really don't see what all the fuss is about.
Anet gives us a Makeover feature wanted by the community for a long time running, added storage space, HOM update. Everything they have released up until this point has been adequate for a pay once game release. They've even gone out of their way so that players can obtain added space through ingame means, and we all moan. The current offerings released yesterday are all bonus, and yeah if you want it, pay for it. The Makeover thing falls under, appearance, it's not hindering gameplay. Storage up until this point I think has also been adequate. Seriously what's the point of hording useless items that you'll never sell or even use on a daily, weekly basis. This update is just the cherry on top, mind you it came into effect way to late regarding Guild Wars life line.

If Anet can follow the model they've been building up thus far and delivery us with GW2 pay once, release quality/adequate content and have added esthetics at a cost, so be it. You really can't blame them for going this route, as other parties are probably involved, not only that but I'm pretty sure they know there is a big market for features added as of late relating to added features at a price through the ingame store.

O.K.A.Y.

Imagine it's anno domini 2011 and you have just bought Guild Wars 2. After successful account creation, you go to lovely character creation screen. In top-right corner there is a small box advertising 'character appearance' kit in PlayNC Shop. You can't be bothered as (theoretically) Guild Wars franchise is pay-once game so you choose your profession, gender and go to next screen with detailed appearance. Now, you notice that your character has only 12 face sets, 14 different skin colours, 13 different hair styles and 10 different hair colours. Well, you can't be arsed, you pick your favourite combo and press okay until you land in a newbie outpost. You follow the main road to NPC with big '!' over his head and read your introduction quest. Next to you is standing another character of the same class and profession as you, but with some strange yet cool hair style and very interesting face set. Out of curiosity you ask him how has he got such cool look ... he says he paid 10 American Dollars for appearance kit. Now, you start scratching your head and remember that you have paid like 44,99$ for the basic game already and that it was advertised as buy to play (b2p) game.

How do you feel? Because I feel like a customer who is being cheated on by a greedy company which fails to see a difference between pay to play (subscription-based) game, b2p (buy-to-play) game and f2p (free-to-play) game with item shop and game-breaking paid content. So basically out of pure greed they are mixing f2p model with b2p model, yet making fools of you, all current and future customers that it's a b2p game. It's not. Diablo was b2p game. Diablo II was b2p game. Guild Wars IS not a b2p game. It's essentially b2p game with item shop and SHOULD be advertised like that.

Saphrium · Apr 24, 2009, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

O.K.A.Y.

Imagine it's anno domini 2011 and you have just bought Guild Wars 2. After successful account creation, you go to lovely character creation screen. In top-right corner there is a small box advertising 'character appearance' kit in PlayNC Shop. You can't be bothered as (theoretically) Guild Wars franchise is pay-once game so you choose your profession, gender and go to next screen with detailed appearance. Now, you notice that your character has only 12 face sets, 14 different skin colours, 13 different hair styles and 10 different hair colours. Well, you can't be arsed, you pick your favourite combo and press okay until you land in a newbie outpost. You follow the main road to NPC with big '!' over his head and read your introduction quest. Next to you is standing another character of the same class and profession as you, but with some strange yet cool hair style and very interesting face set. Out of curiosity you ask him how has he got such cool look ... he says he paid 10 American Dollars for appearance kit. Now, you start scratching your head and remember that you have paid like 44,99$ for the basic game already and that it was advertised as buy to play (b2p) game.

How do you feel? Because I feel like a customer who is being cheated on by a greedy company which fails to see a difference between pay to play (subscription-based) game, b2p (buy-to-play) game and f2p (free-to-play) game with item shop and game-breaking paid content. So basically out of pure greed they are mixing f2p model with b2p model, yet making fools of you, all current and future customers that it's a b2p game. It's not. Diablo was b2p game. Diablo II was b2p game. Guild Wars IS not a b2p game. It's essentially b2p game with item shop and SHOULD be advertised like that.

Actually I think you are making a lot of sense.

Ec]-[oMaN · Apr 24, 2009, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

O.K.A.Y.

Okay, did you even comprehend or read my post. Everything Anet has provided thus far seems adequate.

If for instance Anet gave us the same amount of appearance options as they do currently but instead all those that are offered are horrendous compared to the PAY to USE ones then I'd have a problem. If Anet offered us a very limited choice of appearance settings compared to the PAY to PAY ones then I'd have a problem.

Also remember now we are talking about APPEARANCE/LOOKS has no direct relation to the quality of gameplay offered within the game. Cherry's on top, you've already slurped the cream.

Regarding your models comparisons, it's starting to cross the line between B2P, and P2P, again everything offered thus far can still be argued for still being a B2P game. What was released yesterday doesn't really have a tremendous effect/hindrance on gameplay that was already released using the B2P model. Added features you are going to pay up the arse yet have no real benefit overall.

Shuuda · Apr 24, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

greedy company... pure greed

Get over yourself and face reality; Anet is a company, they HAVE to make money. It's not malicious or anything.

Quote:

but with some strange yet cool hair style and very interesting face set.

The Stylist pack added does not add any new faces or hair, so what makes you so sure that a GW2 version would?

Quote:

Guild Wars IS not a b2p game. It's essentially b2p game with item shop and SHOULD be advertised like that.

So it's not a b2p game, but essentially is a b2p game?

Coraline Jones · Apr 24, 2009, 08:28 PM // 20:28

I'm personally not too surprised that ArenaNet has started charging players for extra features. Guild Wars isn't going to make it in the long term unless they can start charging fans for bonus features.

Nevertheless, charging money for extra storage tabs seems kind of lousy since it's not like any gamer want LESS storage. I know of friends that bought all four tabs within minutes after they went on sale, so there's serious money to be made off of it. I am probably going to break down myself, if only to get rid of the annoying visual reminder with the grayed-out storage tabs.

In some ways, I almost wish that they had gone all out with the micropayment model. They already have so many unlocks in the store. If ArenaNet had offered the Large Equipment Packs in the online store for $5 per bag, then I would have just given them the money already. I can't see myself grinding through quests and missions for months just to earn myself an "uber" equipment pack.

Rocky Raccoon · Apr 24, 2009, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

O.K.A.Y.

Imagine it's anno domini 2011 and you have just bought Guild Wars 2. After successful account creation, you go to lovely character creation screen. In top-right corner there is a small box advertising 'character appearance' kit in PlayNC Shop. You can't be bothered as (theoretically) Guild Wars franchise is pay-once game so you choose your profession, gender and go to next screen with detailed appearance. Now, you notice that your character has only 12 face sets, 14 different skin colours, 13 different hair styles and 10 different hair colours. Well, you can't be arsed, you pick your favourite combo and press okay until you land in a newbie outpost. You follow the main road to NPC with big '!' over his head and read your introduction quest. Next to you is standing another character of the same class and profession as you, but with some strange yet cool hair style and very interesting face set. Out of curiosity you ask him how has he got such cool look ... he says he paid 10 American Dollars for appearance kit. Now, you start scratching your head and remember that you have paid like 44,99$ for the basic game already and that it was advertised as buy to play (b2p) game.

How do you feel? Because I feel like a customer who is being cheated on by a greedy company which fails to see a difference between pay to play (subscription-based) game, b2p (buy-to-play) game and f2p (free-to-play) game with item shop and game-breaking paid content. So basically out of pure greed they are mixing f2p model with b2p model, yet making fools of you, all current and future customers that it's a b2p game. It's not. Diablo was b2p game. Diablo II was b2p game. Guild Wars IS not a b2p game. It's essentially b2p game with item shop and SHOULD be advertised like that.

Stricltly theoretical as we don't know how GW2 will be presented to us.

hallomik · Apr 24, 2009, 08:36 PM // 20:36

The problem with AmbientMelody's post is that it is an exaggeration over what Anet has done in this case. If a person could pay more money to get a significantly cooler look, I would be annoyed. All that happens in this case is a person can re-do their look. Yes, he can combine looks across campaigns, but I defy anyone to create a noticably "cooler" look with that.

Bottom line is that Anet is approaching an area that make a lot of us feel uncomfortable. We don't want real life $'s to give players advantages in either normal gameplay or even the "vanity" wars.

However, I have to admit upon looking at how everything was implemented, they made the right calls.

For example:

The vanity options (name/appearance changes) don't allow a player to look cooler. It's basically a redo button. I'll never use any of them, but I think it's fine others do.

The pet unlocks aren't game-breaking. Actually, I think the whole thing is kind of pointless and a bit of a misguided programming effort, but to each his own.

Consider Storage. Every single person got some totally free storage (bonus pane), some cheap storage with an in-game cost (2.5K for 5 slot equip pack), a way to get more storage as a quest reward (Z Coins for bigger equip packs) and a way to get insta-extra storage (10 bucks a pane). Whether you want to pay real money, pay in-game gold, get something free or "grind" for it, the options are there. I really don't know how that could have done it much better and still given themselves a revenue stream.

If you exaggerate what the have done into something else, sure, that will sound bad. If you look at what they have actually done, it's really quite fine.

They're walking a fine line, but they've stayed on the right side of it so far.

Saphrium · Apr 24, 2009, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

So it's not a b2p game, but essentially is a b2p game?

He means it is not b2p all content, it is b2p+micropay

UndeadRoadkill · Apr 24, 2009, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

At what point are you selling people extra content, and at what point are you removing content from the game to sell it back to people?

This would be my concern. I always thought if they did a stylist like people have been asking, it would be a big in-game gold sink. It's a shame, because I really would like to change some appearances, but the real monetary cost is ridiculous. I can't even do unpleasant grind for it (unless you count my job as grind, ha!).

I can't help but wonder if they would be asking real money for this stylist thing if it were done earlier.

What if it cost some IRL dough to change your secondary profession? I mean, you don't NEED to change your secondary, you can just make another character (don't have enough slots? you can always buy another).

AmbientMelody · Apr 24, 2009, 09:09 PM // 21:09

The fact that only if you pay you can mix appearances of all chapters is enough of a reason to make fuss about. I made an exaggeration to show the obvious state of things if the current Anet politics are going to continue in this direction. It's your game so it's up to you to decide if you agree or not.

Daesu · Apr 24, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

The hair stylist doesnt give an in-game advantage. But I suppose if you REALLY want to view it that way, everything can be nudged into the realm of "in-game advantage". For example, you look better so PUGs find your character more appealing, so you find parties better, there you have it! An in-game advantage!

At least I see some attempt to not let in-game advantage be buyable through their store.

Actually they should let many of grind advantages be buyable so that those who dont have that much time to grind because they have a full time job, since they are disadvantaged because of their lifestyle, be able to catch up.

Sir Green Aluminum · Apr 24, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Anet did respond saying that it was a costly thing for them to do.

Lol yes, I'm sure they're losing money because they have to pay real world hair stylists and plastic surgeons to copy, paste and change the character create code that was already on the CD that we bought.

Let hope we don't see a move towards level 3x faster items and rare weapons and armour you can buy only from the shop like in the Korean games microtransactions come from. Mmmm nothing like buying in game stuff with real world money to stay competitive.

Oh yeah and the cash shop system is leech friendly in itself, why am I paying for carp so little kidz can come and play for free on the server and trash it up.

DarkWasp · Apr 24, 2009, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

O.K.A.Y.

Imagine it's anno domini 2011 and you have just bought Guild Wars 2. After successful account creation, you go to lovely character creation screen. In top-right corner there is a small box advertising 'character appearance' kit in PlayNC Shop. You can't be bothered as (theoretically) Guild Wars franchise is pay-once game so you choose your profession, gender and go to next screen with detailed appearance. Now, you notice that your character has only 12 face sets, 14 different skin colours, 13 different hair styles and 10 different hair colours. Well, you can't be arsed, you pick your favourite combo and press okay until you land in a newbie outpost. You follow the main road to NPC with big '!' over his head and read your introduction quest. Next to you is standing another character of the same class and profession as you, but with some strange yet cool hair style and very interesting face set. Out of curiosity you ask him how has he got such cool look ... he says he paid 10 American Dollars for appearance kit. Now, you start scratching your head and remember that you have paid like 44,99$ for the basic game already and that it was advertised as buy to play (b2p) game.

How do you feel? Because I feel like a customer who is being cheated on by a greedy company which fails to see a difference between pay to play (subscription-based) game, b2p (buy-to-play) game and f2p (free-to-play) game with item shop and game-breaking paid content. So basically out of pure greed they are mixing f2p model with b2p model, yet making fools of you, all current and future customers that it's a b2p game. It's not. Diablo was b2p game. Diablo II was b2p game. Guild Wars IS not a b2p game. It's essentially b2p game with item shop and SHOULD be advertised like that.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I'm hoping for an official word on this soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The hair stylist doesnt give an in-game advantage. But I suppose if you REALLY want to view it that way, everything can be nudged into the realm of "in-game advantage". For example, you look better so PUGs find your character more appealing, so you find parties better, there you have it! An in-game advantage!

But that's the thing of it! Games arent just about standing a chance in combat and getting good groups. They kind of have to be made like a good book or movie. You wan't to get into the story and get into your character. How much you love your character has an effect on how much you want to continue playing the game.

Not all players see it this way, I agree. But I do know there is a lot who love the RP side.

Daesu · Apr 24, 2009, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coraline Jones

In some ways, I almost wish that they had gone all out with the micropayment model. They already have so many unlocks in the store. If ArenaNet had offered the Large Equipment Packs in the online store for $5 per bag, then I would have just given them the money already. I can't see myself grinding through quests and missions for months just to earn myself an "uber" equipment pack.

I feel the same way. They should just sell the damn equipment packs already!

At 70 copper coins per day, I need to play for 3.5 months just to get a 20-slot pack! 3.5 months is too much of a grind of my time.

A long long time ago, people buy games like load runner but never expected content or game update for the next 5 years. I think the micro payments of, pay if you need it, dont pay if you dont, are fine. At least they are not requiring everyone to pay. And we have been getting alot more free game updates and server time, compared to load runner, I can tell you that right now.